This Sunday, our Public Theology "sermon" time was rich with conversation about sin and salvation. Here's what we wrestled with:
Bible on Sin
Stories involving sin
Cain and Abel
Adam and Eve
the Good Samaritan
the Prodigal Son
the Rich Man and the Beggar
David (Bathsheba and Uriah)
Tower of Babel
Cast the first stone
Soddom and Gomorroah
Plagues result of not listening to God
"Don't!"
worshiping false idols
most everything in the prophets
not visiting, feeding, clothing least of these
covetessness
10 commandments
judging and condemning others
greatest commandment
mixing fibers and other Levitical purity laws
breaking dietary restrictions
being unclean
being uncircumcized, tatooed, or malformed
being a hypocrite
we are born into sin
Bible on Salvation
forgiveness is God's
God's gift through Christ is grace
I am the Way...no one shall come except through me
Obeying rules gives salvation (OT, Pharisees)
Sacrifices atone for sins (OT)
Sin and salvation is not all about following the rules (Jesus)
Old Testament ideas of "doing right" + "loving kindness" is how to earn salvation
God searches for the lost to save them (coin, sheep, son)
Salvation is living in the Kingdom of God now
Born again of the spirit
Baptism necessary for salvation
Jesus lived and died to save all
Old Testament salvation is about outward sacrifice, New Testament salvation is about inward sacrifice
Christian Tradition on Sin
Pope can designate sin/not sin (Roman Catholic view)
ALL sin and fall short
Jesus was sinless
Separation from God
Willful disobedience of God
Not following society's laws
Natural law
Original sin
Doing anything not of God
Creature worshiping self rather than the creator (C.S. Lewis)
Inability to forgive, hardening of heart
"missing the target"
retaliation (very different from Old Testament/Middle Eastern society where not standing up for family by retaliating would be a sin)
Christian Tradition on Salvation
Universal salvation (Universalists) vs Predestination (Calvinists)
Saved through Grace
Saved through Works Righteousness (social justice)
Saved through Word Alone
We all have the ability to respond to or deny God's grace
Salvation is about New Life, a New Age
Salvation is both here-and-now and in life after death (Milton)
Jesus is the "Lamb of God" so that we would never have to make temple sacrifice again
Reason and Experience on Sin
Sin is being sure someone else is going to hell
I struggle with atonement theory. I don't believe God needs Christ's grisly death as payment for sin.
The most "sticky" sins are the ones where I hurt another
What do we do when our sins are sticky? talk to friend/counselor, talk to the one I hurt, pray-pray-pray
I struggle with why God made us able to sin
How can God let things like the Holocaust happen?
Sin sometimes feels like being nibbled to death by ducks--lots of little things
Sin feels like I am running away
Reason and Experience on Salvation
it's sweet and it's real
I have a deep awareness of God's presence in my life--regardless of my sin
Humility is part of it
I feel saved when I experience the divine presences and beauty
Salvation feels like coming home and being embraced and welcomed
God surrounds me and says, "It's OK."
Part of salvation for me is looking back and seeing God's hand at work in the world
Monday, July 30, 2012
Sunday, July 22, 2012
"What is Humanity?" Scripture, Tradition, Reason/Experience
This week our congregation tackled "What is humanity?"
Our first three weeks of Public Theology were a bit easier. The Bible and tradition specifically mention God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit often. Now, we're beginning to have to distill stories to get to their understanding of humanity (and upcoming grappling with sin, salvation, the future, etc). We did a great job taking the next step in our discovery. Here's what we distilled about humanity:
Bible
Adam and Eve
adam created from the earth
eve created from adam's flesh
created in God's image
needed God's breath to enliven
gave dominion over the animals
have a need for companionship, "helpmate"
we are fallen, disobedient
we have a temptation to be like God and a desire for God's knowledge
work is a punishment and part of being human
Satan worked on people when they were alone, never when they were together
we are mortal because of sin
we all will struggle because of sin
7 days of creation
we are created and called "good" (along with the rest of creation)
we are the last of the created things, the culmination
be fruitful and multiply
we blame others
we kill
we argue and wrestle with God (Abraham, Jacob)
we have a conscience
sometimes we'd rather not follow God (Jonah, etc)
we forget God often
we're in covenants with God (Moses, Abraham, Jesus, etc)
God tests us (Job, Abraham, etc)
we fail to understand God
God loves us in spite of all our failings
God loves a chosen people
God lifts up/blesses the lowly (beatitudes, magnificat)
Jesus is fully human, models the perfect human
we will be judged
we need the commandments
Tradition
"the flesh" is not to be trusted
there is a common human experience of calling to God for guidance and strength
the prayer of St. Francis describes humanity
we ask God's help to be better
"I am a worm and no man" (bcp)
Saints of God are just folk like me (hymn)
Our hearts are restless until they find rest in thee (Augustine)
we're worthwhile, no matter how bad (Amazing Grace)
Jesus loves me, this I know
we are forgiven through grace, not works
works righteousness
our relationship with God is both individual/private and collective/corporate
humanity is a shared experience
we're "amphibians" both fleshly and spiritual (Screwtape, CS Lewis)
we always have rules--need an "operating manual"
we never follow all the rules
we have free will
the theory of predestination
we want to be superior to others
we want to direct others
we're often certain we are right
not following God's rules will put us into hell
Reason/Experience
my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak
humanity has discounted/abused/used animals (and all creation)
the human condition is part of ALL of us
we all struggle with the same questions, no matter who we are
our search for truth never finds a solution
we like instant gratification
we have a capacity to reflect on the suffering of others
we have a capacity to help and respond to others
we have the ability to be indifferent
we have the ability to inflict suffering
I struggle with the question of HOW we walk with God: by self-discipline or by grace?
we all grapple
how does God feel about us doing the right thing for the wrong reason?
how does God feel about us doing the wrong thing for the right reason?
it's hard to believe that grace can cover ALL sins (there are some really terrible folks out there)
we blame tragedy on God (is that true?)
we claim God saves us from tragedy (is that true?)
we have an ability to trust God
self-discipline is important in our growth
when wars are fought, every side believes God is on "our side"
so many people are good, loving, kind
humans see evil more easily than they see the good
humans respond to love better than to threats
we need to suspend our disbelief in order to have faith
we have had incredible success and incredible failures
we like to put things in place of God: my own judgement, money, etc
we don't want to give God control
we desire to experience God
we fear experiencing God
it is impossible for humans to understand God
many people give up trying to have a relationship with God
many are angry with God
question why God made me like this if it leads to abuse/pain/etc
we have a desire to be self-reliant
Several folks this week commented on how our first three topics were uplifting and helpful, but this week's discovery felt depressing. I encouraged them to continue attending--we first need to get an understanding of humanity before we can understand the questions of sin, salvation, and the future. Check in next week!
Our first three weeks of Public Theology were a bit easier. The Bible and tradition specifically mention God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit often. Now, we're beginning to have to distill stories to get to their understanding of humanity (and upcoming grappling with sin, salvation, the future, etc). We did a great job taking the next step in our discovery. Here's what we distilled about humanity:
Bible
Adam and Eve
adam created from the earth
eve created from adam's flesh
created in God's image
needed God's breath to enliven
gave dominion over the animals
have a need for companionship, "helpmate"
we are fallen, disobedient
we have a temptation to be like God and a desire for God's knowledge
work is a punishment and part of being human
Satan worked on people when they were alone, never when they were together
we are mortal because of sin
we all will struggle because of sin
7 days of creation
we are created and called "good" (along with the rest of creation)
we are the last of the created things, the culmination
be fruitful and multiply
we blame others
we kill
we argue and wrestle with God (Abraham, Jacob)
we have a conscience
sometimes we'd rather not follow God (Jonah, etc)
we forget God often
we're in covenants with God (Moses, Abraham, Jesus, etc)
God tests us (Job, Abraham, etc)
we fail to understand God
God loves us in spite of all our failings
God loves a chosen people
God lifts up/blesses the lowly (beatitudes, magnificat)
Jesus is fully human, models the perfect human
we will be judged
we need the commandments
Tradition
"the flesh" is not to be trusted
there is a common human experience of calling to God for guidance and strength
the prayer of St. Francis describes humanity
we ask God's help to be better
"I am a worm and no man" (bcp)
Saints of God are just folk like me (hymn)
Our hearts are restless until they find rest in thee (Augustine)
we're worthwhile, no matter how bad (Amazing Grace)
Jesus loves me, this I know
we are forgiven through grace, not works
works righteousness
our relationship with God is both individual/private and collective/corporate
humanity is a shared experience
we're "amphibians" both fleshly and spiritual (Screwtape, CS Lewis)
we always have rules--need an "operating manual"
we never follow all the rules
we have free will
the theory of predestination
we want to be superior to others
we want to direct others
we're often certain we are right
not following God's rules will put us into hell
Reason/Experience
my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak
humanity has discounted/abused/used animals (and all creation)
the human condition is part of ALL of us
we all struggle with the same questions, no matter who we are
our search for truth never finds a solution
we like instant gratification
we have a capacity to reflect on the suffering of others
we have a capacity to help and respond to others
we have the ability to be indifferent
we have the ability to inflict suffering
I struggle with the question of HOW we walk with God: by self-discipline or by grace?
we all grapple
how does God feel about us doing the right thing for the wrong reason?
how does God feel about us doing the wrong thing for the right reason?
it's hard to believe that grace can cover ALL sins (there are some really terrible folks out there)
we blame tragedy on God (is that true?)
we claim God saves us from tragedy (is that true?)
we have an ability to trust God
self-discipline is important in our growth
when wars are fought, every side believes God is on "our side"
so many people are good, loving, kind
humans see evil more easily than they see the good
humans respond to love better than to threats
we need to suspend our disbelief in order to have faith
we have had incredible success and incredible failures
we like to put things in place of God: my own judgement, money, etc
we don't want to give God control
we desire to experience God
we fear experiencing God
it is impossible for humans to understand God
many people give up trying to have a relationship with God
many are angry with God
question why God made me like this if it leads to abuse/pain/etc
we have a desire to be self-reliant
Several folks this week commented on how our first three topics were uplifting and helpful, but this week's discovery felt depressing. I encouraged them to continue attending--we first need to get an understanding of humanity before we can understand the questions of sin, salvation, and the future. Check in next week!
"Who is the Holy Spirit?" Scripture, Tradition, Reason/Experience
July 15th we grappled with Who Is the Holy Spirit. Here is what we remembered from the following sources:
Bible
We are baptized with the Holy Spirit
brooding upon the chaos
comforter
encourager
breath of God
flames (descended on heads at Pentecost)
Giver of Life
giver of abilities/gifts
fruits of the Spirit
Jesus left, the Holy Spirit remains
wind of God
creative force/creator
comes upon, inspires (Isaiah 61)
advocate
paraclete
sword
word of God
enabler of prayer
Tradition
dove
binds Christ and the church
binds Father and Son
binds us all together in the church
sustainer
3rd part of trinity
fire
is a gift
perpetual light
God at work in the world
breathe of God
breath of life, "Ruach"
teacher
enables us to grow
spoke through the prophets
harmonizes God, self, neighbor, and all creation
divine comforter
sanctifies us
associated with speaking in tongues, healing, teaching, abundant joy, snake handling, slane in spirit, fearlessness.
fruits: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control
Nicene creed: Eastern (Spirit and Jesus from Father), Western (Jesus from Father and Spirit)
gender-sometimes the Spirit is female
Christ made incarnate by the Holy Spirit
No one has more or less of the Holy Spirit--we've all got it.
Our Reason/Experience
The Spirit interrupts us!
Love
strengthens us in love and good works
always with us
always comforts us
transcends words, reason
equality--we are all equal in God's eyes and all have the gift of the Holy Spirit
with us in chaos
the Spirit is God operating in the material AND psychological realm
I get promptings from the Holy Spirit, and when I listen they're always needed/right
"the Spirit will bring all to your remembrance"--helps us know what is important
I am able to live through difficult times because the Holy Spirit is with me
I can *feel* being held up in prayer--this is through the Holy Spirit
the Spirit holds people together in abundant joy, like at camp
I feel the Holy Spirit among people when we're enjoying live music together
I miss talking about the Holy Ghost because the root of "ghost" and "guest" is the same
Bible
We are baptized with the Holy Spirit
brooding upon the chaos
comforter
encourager
breath of God
flames (descended on heads at Pentecost)
Giver of Life
giver of abilities/gifts
fruits of the Spirit
Jesus left, the Holy Spirit remains
wind of God
creative force/creator
comes upon, inspires (Isaiah 61)
advocate
paraclete
sword
word of God
enabler of prayer
Tradition
dove
binds Christ and the church
binds Father and Son
binds us all together in the church
sustainer
3rd part of trinity
fire
is a gift
perpetual light
God at work in the world
breathe of God
breath of life, "Ruach"
teacher
enables us to grow
spoke through the prophets
harmonizes God, self, neighbor, and all creation
divine comforter
sanctifies us
associated with speaking in tongues, healing, teaching, abundant joy, snake handling, slane in spirit, fearlessness.
fruits: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control
Nicene creed: Eastern (Spirit and Jesus from Father), Western (Jesus from Father and Spirit)
gender-sometimes the Spirit is female
Christ made incarnate by the Holy Spirit
No one has more or less of the Holy Spirit--we've all got it.
Our Reason/Experience
The Spirit interrupts us!
Love
strengthens us in love and good works
always with us
always comforts us
transcends words, reason
equality--we are all equal in God's eyes and all have the gift of the Holy Spirit
with us in chaos
the Spirit is God operating in the material AND psychological realm
I get promptings from the Holy Spirit, and when I listen they're always needed/right
"the Spirit will bring all to your remembrance"--helps us know what is important
I am able to live through difficult times because the Holy Spirit is with me
I can *feel* being held up in prayer--this is through the Holy Spirit
the Spirit holds people together in abundant joy, like at camp
I feel the Holy Spirit among people when we're enjoying live music together
I miss talking about the Holy Ghost because the root of "ghost" and "guest" is the same
Thursday, July 12, 2012
"Who is Jesus?" Scripture, Tradition, Reason/Experience
We are continuing our Sunday Morning Public Theology during the normal sermon time. We're on the second person of the trinity (Jesus) this week and here are some of the attributes we shared:
Scripture
family of David
Son of God
good Jewish boy
the vine
everything was created through and for Jesus
healer
the way
the lamb
teacher
mesiah
social justice do-er
not what anyone expected
carpenter
a man
prophet
disturber of the status quo
savior
suffering servant
word made flesh
one who calls people
look at Jesus to see the Father
God incarnate
head of the church
head of the body
appreciated/valued women and children
coming back
died and was resurrected
our advocate
could be angry
could be sad
had emotions
Tradition
Son of God
Son of Man
redeemer
incarnate of the Virgin Mary
Lamb of God
The Truth
"lover of my soul"
sinless
blessed
Bread of Life
Lord and Savior
forgiver of our sins
is alive, he lives!
The Word
Alpha and Omega
sustainer
healer
Paschal Lamb
head of the church
fully God
fully human
died and was resurrected
part of the trinity
is returning
accepts me Just as I Am
Reason/Experience
misunderstood
loving
caring
not judgemental
not unforgiving
my friend
sometimes your only friend
ever-present in my life
tells us to "straighten up and fly right"
puts our lives and hurts into perspective
models "What Would Jesus Do"
understanding-he knows human life
I struggle with the complexity of Jesus' "take this cup away from me"
the fully human/fully divine is more than my reason can understand
I question the sinlessness
Jesus models questioning and struggling with God
models standing up for justice
God likes me with all my flaws--just this way
We're acceptable, through Jesus
sustainer
Jesus waits. He is so patient with me.
death is not the end--there is happiness and joy beyond it, and continued relationship
we need to work on and spend time with our relationship with Jesus
healer
Scripture
family of David
Son of God
good Jewish boy
the vine
everything was created through and for Jesus
healer
the way
the lamb
teacher
mesiah
social justice do-er
not what anyone expected
carpenter
a man
prophet
disturber of the status quo
savior
suffering servant
word made flesh
one who calls people
look at Jesus to see the Father
God incarnate
head of the church
head of the body
appreciated/valued women and children
coming back
died and was resurrected
our advocate
could be angry
could be sad
had emotions
Tradition
Son of God
Son of Man
redeemer
incarnate of the Virgin Mary
Lamb of God
The Truth
"lover of my soul"
sinless
blessed
Bread of Life
Lord and Savior
forgiver of our sins
is alive, he lives!
The Word
Alpha and Omega
sustainer
healer
Paschal Lamb
head of the church
fully God
fully human
died and was resurrected
part of the trinity
is returning
accepts me Just as I Am
Reason/Experience
misunderstood
loving
caring
not judgemental
not unforgiving
my friend
sometimes your only friend
ever-present in my life
tells us to "straighten up and fly right"
puts our lives and hurts into perspective
models "What Would Jesus Do"
understanding-he knows human life
I struggle with the complexity of Jesus' "take this cup away from me"
the fully human/fully divine is more than my reason can understand
I question the sinlessness
Jesus models questioning and struggling with God
models standing up for justice
God likes me with all my flaws--just this way
We're acceptable, through Jesus
sustainer
Jesus waits. He is so patient with me.
death is not the end--there is happiness and joy beyond it, and continued relationship
we need to work on and spend time with our relationship with Jesus
healer
Thursday, July 5, 2012
Who is God? Scripture, Tradition, Reason/Experience
Last Sunday began our corporate theological discernment around the core questions of Christianity. The question of the week is "Who is God?" Half the congregation spent five minutes brainstorming what the Bible has to say on the topic while the other half of the congregation considered the tradition (mainly the BCP including historical documents, and the hymnal). Then together we shared what our reason and experience tells us. Here are our lists:
Who Is God: Scripture
Creator
Ruler of the Universe
Jealous
Governor
Judge
Wisdom
Love
Offers a covenant
In relationship with us/world
King Eternal
Omniscience-Omnipotent
Invisible
Unknowable
Holy
Almighty
Merciful
Alpha and Omega
Righteous
Forgiving
Shield and sword
Servant
I AM
Yahweh
Elohim
Triune
Who Is God: Tradition
Love
Father Almighty
Creator of Heaven and Earth
Maker of all things, visible and invisible
King of Peace
One
Living
True
Everlasting
Without body, parts, or passion
Infinite in power
Infinite in wisdom
Infinite in goodness
Ground of Existence
God knows us personally
God searches and years for us personally
I AM
Patient
Shield and defender
Incomprehensible
Holy Name is everywhere
Shepherd
Light and Salvation
Who Is God: Reason/Tradition
Beautiful
Comfort
Compassionate
Passionate
My husband
Patient
Provider
Enormous
Knowing
Accessible
Giver of freedom
Everywhere
Unseen artist
Likes to be appreciated
Incomprehensible/unknowable
Completely rational
Serenity (both is serenity and gives serenity)
Safety
I was pleased with the work we did during the sermon time. These lists are great! Do you see anything we've missed? What would you add?
Next week, we'll focus on "Who is Jesus Christ?" stay tuned.
Who Is God: Scripture
Creator
Ruler of the Universe
Jealous
Governor
Judge
Wisdom
Love
Offers a covenant
In relationship with us/world
King Eternal
Omniscience-Omnipotent
Invisible
Unknowable
Holy
Almighty
Merciful
Alpha and Omega
Righteous
Forgiving
Shield and sword
Servant
I AM
Yahweh
Elohim
Triune
Who Is God: Tradition
Love
Father Almighty
Creator of Heaven and Earth
Maker of all things, visible and invisible
King of Peace
One
Living
True
Everlasting
Without body, parts, or passion
Infinite in power
Infinite in wisdom
Infinite in goodness
Ground of Existence
God knows us personally
God searches and years for us personally
I AM
Patient
Shield and defender
Incomprehensible
Holy Name is everywhere
Shepherd
Light and Salvation
Who Is God: Reason/Tradition
Beautiful
Comfort
Compassionate
Passionate
My husband
Patient
Provider
Enormous
Knowing
Accessible
Giver of freedom
Everywhere
Unseen artist
Likes to be appreciated
Incomprehensible/unknowable
Completely rational
Serenity (both is serenity and gives serenity)
Safety
I was pleased with the work we did during the sermon time. These lists are great! Do you see anything we've missed? What would you add?
Next week, we'll focus on "Who is Jesus Christ?" stay tuned.
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